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Working with Clients, Large and Small - C.C. Chapman

Name: Working with Clients, Large and Small - C.C. Chapman
Uploaded: 2012-07-31T21:41:51Z
Duration: 1073 s
Description: In this interview, author C.C. Chapman discusses his experience working with clients - including Coca-Cola, American Eagle Outfitters, and HBO - and how preparation and professionalism can improve your relationship with clients and lead to future work.

17:53 with Dan Gorgone

In this interview, author C.C. Chapman discusses his experience working with clients - including Coca-Cola, American Eagle Outfitters, and HBO - and how preparation and professionalism can improve your relationship with clients and lead to future work.

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Learn more about C.C. Chapman at his official website and on Twitter at @cc_chapman.

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[? music playing ?] 0:00

Hey everyone! 0:05

Welcome back to Treehouse Friends. 0:06

I'm Dan Gorgone, the Marketing and Business teacher at Treehouse, 0:08

and we're joined today by author, C.C. Chapman. 0:11

C.C., thanks for coming, man. 0:14

Psyched to be here. 0:15

All right. C.C. is an author of a couple books, 0:15

"Content Rules" and "Amazing Things Will Happen." 0:18

He's worked with some huge clients around the world— 0:21

talking about HBO, Coca-Cola, 0:24

American Eagle, Country Music Television, right? 0:26

Yep. 0:29

In addition to a whole bunch more. 0:30

What we want to talk about today is your experience with your own companies— 0:34

Okay. 0:39

—and with these big companies, as well. 0:40

So can you tell us, how did you get started in this industry? 0:42

Well nobody told me I couldn't do it. 0:45

I was working at a college doing digital marketing and decided 0:48

that I wanted to move on to something else. 0:52

A friend of mine was starting and agency and said, "Well come work for me." 0:54

It was a small, 9-person shop. 0:57

This was at the height of social media, 0:59

and we did a lot of virtual world projects. 1:02

One of the biggest projects I ever did that I'm still very proud of is we brought 1:05

Coco-Cola into Second Life back in the day— 1:08

the Virtual Thirst project. 1:10

After a little while, I realized—you know what—I want to start my own agency. 1:12

So a friend of mine got together, and we started The Advance Guard 1:16

and just started doing it— 1:19

working with clients and doing projects that we believed in, 1:20

both from a creative standpoint but also a strategic standpoint, 1:24

and we just kept doing it. 1:28

It was one of those things where we were determined that we had the skills 1:29

and the knowledge to do it, so we started doing it. 1:33

No one—I have a computer background—a CIS degree. 1:36

I don't have a marketing degree, 1:40

but I knew enough about the industry. 1:41

I taught myself. 1:43

We had done years of indie filmmaking and Guerrilla stuff. 1:44

So I'd done it before. 1:48

No one said I couldn't. >>Right. 1:51

That's what I always answer with. 1:52

And is that something that you hear from other entrepreneurs out there— 1:53

that when they reach that point, 1:58

and certainly it's a tipping point for some people— 2:01

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 2:03

—where they're working for someone else 2:04

and then they decide that they're going to work for themselves. 2:06

>>Yeah. 2:08

What was it specifically that really pushed you where you said, 2:09

"I'm not gonna do this anymore. I'm gonna be my own boss." 2:15

What it really boiled down to—at least for me— 2:18

was I was working with great people, 2:20

we were doing great work, 2:23

but what it came down to me was 2:24

we got to a point where I had a different business take on things— 2:26

a different approach to whether it was getting clients 2:30

or the way we went after new hires— 2:32

everything—I just had a different approach to it. 2:35

The tipping point for me specifically was actually our agency was struggling. 2:36

We were to a point where we were tight on cash and everything, 2:42

and for me—I said, 2:45

"You know what, if I'm gonna starve, 2:46

I want to be the one responsible for the hunting." 2:47

Basically I want to starve on my own terms. 2:50

I didn't want to have to depend on anybody else. 2:51

That for me was the moment where I said, 2:53

"All right. I'm going to take the jump and do it." 2:55

It was scary. 2:57

I didn't know what was— 2:58

6 months from then I could have been in a really bad place. 2:59

But I was determined to hustle and work really hard to make it happen. 3:02

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 3:07

A lot of our members are designers— 3:08

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 3:10

—and developers. 3:10

They are out there freelancing— 3:12

>>Yes. 3:14

—consulting. 3:15

They're starting their own business or they're working with others— 3:15

>>Yeah. 3:19

—on their own—just like you're talking about. 3:19

One of those huge struggles is finding clients. 3:21

Yeah. 3:24

So what was the experience like when you broke out on your own 3:25

and had to get clients, 3:29

and what are some of the tips that you can give to our members? 3:31

It's my least favorite part of doing business. 3:35

It really is. 3:37

Uh-hunh (affirmative. 3:38

I am not a salesman. 3:38

I don't enjoy that part of it. 3:40

I really don't. 3:41

I enjoy doing the work. 3:42

Thankfully, I had partners who enjoyed that part. 3:43

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 3:46

What it really boils down to, especially in today's world as a freelancer, 3:46

is make sure your work is as good as possible because old-fashioned 3:51

word-of-mouth is still the best way to find clients. 3:55

When somebody says, "Hey, I'm looking—I need a designer." 3:58

"I'm looking for a developer." 4:02

You want to be the top of mind to as many people as possible. 4:03

Right. 4:06

So where that plays in—you can't work with everybody. 4:06

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 4:09

But you can—whether it's building a blog 4:10

or whether it's being out at events, 4:12

the more people you know, 4:15

the bigger your network who know your work— 4:15

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 4:17

—the easier it will be. 4:18

But then again, you have to get out there and hustle. 4:19

Put yourself out there. 4:22

Look for people talking about needing work or 4:23

if you see a site that you don't enjoy or you think could be made better, 4:26

go up to the people and approach them. 4:30

Say "Hey, have you ever thought about this?" 4:32

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 4:33

It's gonna be a lot of doors being slammed in your face sometimes. 4:33

Yep. 4:38

It's not knocking on doors anymore. 4:38

It's sending an email. 4:39

It's not that hard. 4:40

Don't be afraid. 4:41

Don't be nervous. 4:41

The only way you get better at it is doing it. 4:42

Like anything else—you have to keep doing it, keep doing it. 4:46

I'm still working on getting better at it. 4:48

Well you've worked with all kinds of different clients— 4:51

>>Yeah. 4:54

—big ones and small ones— 4:55

>>Yeah. 4:57

—and everyone in between. 4:57

From what I've heard from a lot of people, 4:59

and I've worked with clients, as well, 5:01

is that 2 of the things that really make a huge difference are professionalism 5:04

and preparation. 5:09

Yeah. 5:11

When we think about working with clients, 5:12

if we're not doing those things, 5:15

we're really delivering just kind of a lousy experience. 5:16

>>Yeah. 5:21

We're not doing the best that we can do. 5:22

What can you say about professionalism and preparation? 5:23

The thing I always talk about— 5:27

I borrow a phrase from this CEO—Jason of GORUG, 5:28

who always talks about under-promise and over-deliver. 5:32

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 5:34

If it goes the other way, you're in trouble. 5:35

But—yeah—being professional is critical. 5:37

That's not—it doesn't mean you have to be in 5:39

a 3-piece-suit all the time and carrying a briefcase. 5:41

It's just conducting yourself in a professional manner— 5:43

responding to inquiries in a rapid pace, 5:45

delivering a project plan that makes sense. 5:49

hitting your milestones, 5:52

doing things—simple things like that. 5:53

Even—I see it a lot with design and development 5:55

because I hire web designers 5:57

to do projects for me. 5:58

The real professional ones will say, 6:00

"Well here's the timeline." 6:01

"Here's things I'm going to need from you," so I know what's expected of me. 6:03

That's critical because it is hard, especially in today's world, 6:07

where there are a million freelancers out there right now doing what you do. 6:11

You might do it better, but how do I know? 6:15

Everybody's got a website. 6:18

Everybody says they do all this great stuff. 6:19

Everybody has that great client list— 6:21

>>Right. 6:22

—they say they've done great work for. 6:23

But how do you actually know? 6:23

It's really quickly—especially if it's just over email— 6:26

you've got to be—that's hard to— 6:29

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 6:31

—the professionalism. 6:32

If all the sudden they say, "Hey, can we get on Skype and talk," 6:33

which is what I usually do before I hire anybody. 6:35

You can instantly tell—the professionalism quickly— 6:38

if I'm talking to you and you're in a Starbucks yelling and screaming— 6:40

>>Yeah. 6:44

—there's nothing with that— 6:44

but be careful about it. 6:45

Yep. 6:47

You mentioned a few things that can really set some of these people apart. 6:48

Designers and developers know that— 6:52

they're all kind of fighting over those same SEO— 6:56

Yeah. 6:59

—keywords. 6:59

Yeah. 7:00

When people are searching for best designer in this town— 7:00

>>Yeah. 7:04

—or best developer or this particular type of project that clients are looking for. 7:05

It's kind of—you need something that is 7:08

going to set you apart from all the fish in the sea. 7:12

When it comes to pitching big clients— 7:16

Yeah. 7:21

—and approaching those. 7:21

We can do stuff for our friends and family 7:23

Right. Right. 7:25

—and the guy down the street. 7:26

But when it comes to Coca-Cola or HBO 7:27

Yeah. 7:31

—or those guys— 7:32

how do you even get close to those guys? 7:32

How do you pitch them? 7:35

How do you get involved with them? 7:36

My best advice, especially for your audience 7:37

is HBO or Coke are never going to go to a freelancer. 7:40

They're just not going to. 7:44

>>Right. 7:45

What they're going to do is they're going to have their— 7:45

their agency is going to come to freelancers. 7:46

What's tricky about that—because the bigger the company the more agencies 7:50

they probably have. 7:55

In today's world, even sometimes— 7:56

this is going to sound so crazy. 7:57

But they'll have a traditional media agency, a digital media agency, 7:59

sometimes a social agency. 8:02

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 8:04

I still don't get why they have all them, but it's true. 8:05

So getting to know the agencies in your community is critical because 8:07

they're the ones who are going to land the clients. 8:12

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 8:14

Whenever I do work today because now I'm a freelancer— 8:14

I do it through agencies. 8:18

Very rarely will a company bring me in directly. 8:20

So getting to know those agencies is a very important step because if they— 8:22

especially—at least I know from my agency days— 8:27

once you're in with an agency, 8:29

if you're delivering really good work, 8:31

>>Yeah. 8:32

they'll come back to you. 8:33

They'll be like, "Hey, so-and-so did that project for us." 8:33

"Let's go back to him or her and bring them in again"— 8:35

because it's easier than trying to find somebody new. 8:37

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 8:40

So if you get into those— 8:41

start going to those networking or look for agencies. 8:42

Every city in the world has agencies—even small towns now have agencies. 8:43

Find them and get to know them because it's a great way to get in— 8:47

because they'll deal with all the red tape. 8:51

They'll just hire you for—"I need your skill-set for this." >>Right. 8:52

"Go." 8:55

If you can get in, you're golden. 8:57

So working with big clients— 8:59

what are the expectations like when you're working with big clients because— 9:02

big clients/small clients—there's definitely an expectation from them for you 9:05

on what you should be delivering. 9:11

Right. 9:13

I can imagine with some of the big clients, 9:14

you're talking about timelines that could 9:16

be much longer or much more in 9:18

advance of whatever this particular project will launch. 9:21

Right. 9:24

What are the differences between the bigger and smaller projects and their 9:24

expectations of someone that's coming in. 9:28

It's an interesting question because it depends on the client, of course. 9:30

Obviously, it depends. 9:34

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 9:35

But when you're dealing with a half-million dollar budget on a project, 9:35

you can be sure they're paying close attention. 9:39

That timeline is critical. 9:41

A lot of my background was in entertainment projects. 9:43

So whether it was launching True Blood for HBO or doing a Shark Week project— 9:46

we had a very finite— 9:51

we're doing this 6 to 8 weeks. 9:52

This project—it's happening. 9:54

The show is premiering. 9:56

You don't have any—you know— 9:56

Yeah. 9:58

scope creep is going to happen, and you can't escape it. 9:58

How are going to deliver? 10:01

So it's very—the level—the bar is raised. 10:02

You've got to really step up your game. 10:07

The other thing, too, is realize that sometimes with bigger clients— 10:08

one of the downfalls or the troubles with it 10:12

is they've got more red tape. 10:15

They've got more lawyers. 10:16

There's more departments that have to approve. 10:18

If you're working with a smaller start-up— 10:19

Uh-hunh. 10:21

—or a non-profit or something, 10:21

they don't usually have that many hoops to jump through. 10:23

You know who to call to get the answer. 10:25

The biggest drawback, especially on things like design and development, 10:28

is there's usually more people that need to say, 10:32

"Yes, that looks right,"— 10:34

Right. 10:36

—with a bigger company. 10:36

So, thus, you've got to be ready for that timeline of that approval that you asked 10:36

to have done in 2 days ends up taking 5. 10:41

Of course, that pushes off—that's why having a good project manager 10:44

or having those good project management skills— 10:47

>>Yeah. 10:49

—is critical with working with a bigger client. 10:50

So in your personal experience— 10:52

>>Okay. 10:55

—do you have a preference? 10:56

Bigger clients? 10:58

Smaller clients? 10:58

I know—I mean bigger risk, bigger reward. 10:59

Ugh— 11:01

But I know there's a lot that you like about working with those smaller companies— 11:02

people just getting started— 11:08

Yeah. 11:09

—or kind of a more intimate relationship you can have with them. 11:10

Do you have a preference? 11:13

It goes back and forth. 11:14

Don't get me wrong. 11:15

We all love having those big clients on our resume. 11:15

It's hot to say big client X. 11:17

That feels good, plus it's good. 11:20

It's good for your business. 11:22

>>Yeah. 11:22

Plus—I'll answer it this way. 11:23

I prefer to work with a company who's willing to do the project right. 11:26

I don't care if they're big or little. 11:30

I've worked with them both where they say, 11:32

"I'm paying you to do this." 11:34

You say, "This is how it's done." 11:35

They actually listen. 11:36

Sometimes they don't. 11:37

Even though they pay you, they're like, 11:38

"No. No. We're going to do it this way." 11:39

That drives me nuts. 11:41

But I do love—you know, I've got a passion for the non-profit sector— 11:43

for the education— 11:47

for the little start-up that's trying to save the world. 11:48

Those hungry—if the company is hungry to do that project, 11:50

those are the ones I love doing it for. 11:53

There's less headaches, and they're willing to let you do that stuff. 11:55

Then on the flip-side, I remember working with Coke, 11:59

which is the biggest brand in the world. 12:01

We were, thankfully—the department we were working with was willing to 12:02

let us do what we wanted to and innovate. 12:06

It was really—I'm still friends years later with the manager, 12:07

who is no longer at Coke. 12:11

But we're still good friends because we built that friendship. 12:12

Anytime you can get to that level—that takes time. 12:16

But if you can work with a client who actually puts some trust in you, 12:18

and that takes a lot of back and forth, 12:21

and you've got to earn that trust, 12:24

especially when you're talking about big checks coming your way. 12:25

You've got to balance that out. 12:28

Yeah. 12:28

That was going to be my next question, too. 12:29

>>Oh. 12:31

How do you maintain that relationship? 12:31

Because I know if you hook a big fish, right— 12:33

>>Yeah. 12:37

And you successfully complete a project, 12:37

the idea is if we do one project well, 12:40

maybe we can do some more. 12:44

I mean—we can do some— 12:45

Yeah. 12:45

You know—go bigger budget, bigger project. 12:46

But is the relationship really the more important—kind of the more powerful? 12:48

>>It's crucial. 12:54

It's crucial. 12:55

Face it. 12:56

No matter who it is. 12:56

Nobody works for the same company forever. 12:57

>>Right. 12:59

Fifty years ago you worked—our parents worked at one company their whole life. 13:00

Today whoever you're working with is going to go some place else. 13:03

The other thing, too, is—related to this— 13:06

it's not just the person you're working directly with. 13:09

It's all those underlings, as well. 13:11

There's been people who have been interns on projects 13:12

who later go on to launch their own companies. 13:15

>>Oh, right. Yeah. 13:17

Stay in touch with everybody. 13:18

Send an email once in a while. 13:19

Say hello. 13:21

"Hey, just checking in." 13:22

You know—I go to events. 13:24

I see people— 13:25

"Hey, what are you working on?" 13:26

Stay in touch because you never know 13:27

when that person is going to come back and say, 13:28

"Oh, you're still doing that?" 13:30

"Oh, I didn't know that." 13:31

Plus, it still happens to this day, especially in the design and development field, 13:33

people are going to ask about— 13:37

"Hey, who do you use?" 13:39

"Who did your website?" 13:40

I do it all the time. 13:41

I don't—I have people I stay in touch with, but recently I was looking 13:41

for a new web design, and I actually asked my friends. 13:45

I put it out there. 13:48

I said, "Hey, who are you using?" 13:49

I had a bunch of —relationships are crucial. 13:51

Keep those up. 13:54

Don't just do the project and then run away. 13:55

Even if it goes bad, stay in touch. 13:58

It's a little different approach, but stay in touch with— 14:00

Yeah. 14:03

—everybody. 14:03

So for those people out there—whether they be designers or developers 14:04

or really anyone that has considered staring their own business. 14:08

>>Yeah. 14:12

You've been through this a few times. 14:13

>>Yeah. 14:15

What kind of words of advice do you have? 14:15

Is there like one thing that you wish you could have told yourself 14:19

the first time you started a business or 14:21

is there just one thing that if you don't do this you are just going to be— 14:23

Yeah. 14:27

>>—in for trouble. 14:28

I guess figure out what it is you like doing—actually, worse—better— 14:29

figure out what you don't like doing. 14:34

>>Okay. 14:36

Like me, I hate the numbers. 14:36

I hate them. 14:37

I hate Excel spreadsheets. 14:38

Thankfully, my—find a business partner. 14:40

Find someone to work with you who likes those things. 14:42

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 14:44

It's crucial because there's going to be things you just don't like doing. 14:45

Starting a business is hard. 14:48

It's long hours. 14:50

It's lots of hustling. 14:51

It's a lot of work. 14:52

So figure out what you don't like doing. 14:53

Then on the flip-side, too. 14:55

Be ready for growth and realize that growth is the scariest thing. 14:57

Because to grow you have to spend money. 15:01

You start hiring people. 15:03

Uh-hunh (affirmative). 15:04

You're like, "Whoa! We've got to protect our bank—." 15:05

It's—that's the scariest part. 15:07

The first time we did that was the scariest move ever. 15:08

I don't think people realize just how scary. 15:11

It sounds exciting. 15:13

"Ooh, we're hiring people." 15:14

Uh-hunh. 15:15

But that brings all kinds of new taxes. 15:16

Yeah. 15:19

Finally, make sure you have a good lawyer and a good accountant. 15:19

You cannot go wrong. 15:22

Make your lawyer and your accountant your best friends in the world. 15:23

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 15:26

Because they're the ones that are going to keep you out of jail. 15:27

It'll keep you out of trouble and headaches. 15:29

>>Yeah. 15:31

So make sure you have a good one of both of those. 15:31

You recently started a new company— 15:33

>>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 15:36

—the end of last year—The Cleon Foundation. 15:36

>>Yeah. 15:39

I know that this is a much more personal 15:39

>>Yeah. 15:42

—sort of mission for you. 15:42

Can you tell us about the Cleon Foundation, why you started it, 15:44

and what your hopes are? 15:47

Yeah. 15:48

The Cleon Foundation is a company— 15:48

we're focused on making the world a better place through creativity. 15:51

It's a big goal. >>Uh-hunh (affirmative). 15:54

But what I want to do is—I realize that companies of all sizes 15:55

need to be socially responsible. 15:59

They need to give back to their communities and the world around them. 16:01

So The Cleon Foundation's goal is to go into companies and teach them, 16:03

motivate them, and figure out what works for them. 16:08

So going into big companies and developing a social responsibility 16:11

program for them—a social good program for them. 16:14

But then on the flip-side, working with those small non-profits who are— 16:17

whether it's a solar company, 16:20

or a BioLite stove— 16:22

people making the world a better place. 16:24

Going to—I went to Guyana last year with The ONE campaign. 16:26

I saw poverty to a level I'd never seen, 16:30

but I also saw amazing opportunities out there in the world where little changes, 16:33

whether it's getting sustainable energy, 16:37

whether it's getting better vaccines and global healthcare— 16:39

whatever it is— 16:42

there's all these things going on. 16:43

So I wanted to start a— 16:44

I debated— 16:45

do I call it—is a non-profit, is it a company? 16:46

Enough people said, "C.C., no, no, no." 16:48

"Make it a company so people can hire you to help them make the world a better place." 16:50

It's exciting. 16:55

It's only a couple months in, 16:56

and I'm just starting. 16:57

We'll see where it goes. 16:58

But I'm determined to make it work. 17:00

I named it after my grandfather. 17:02

My wife—when I started it—she said, 17:03

"Is this another 2-year project, 3-year project? What is this?"— 17:06

having been through this before. 17:08

I said, "No, no. no. This is the legacy." 17:10

So I have to make it work. 17:12

I'm excited about it. 17:13

Nice. 17:15

So how can we follow you? 17:15

How can we follow The Cleon Foundation— 17:17

Sure. 17:19

learn about what you're doing? 17:19

The easiest place is cc-chapman.com. 17:20

That's where I am online. 17:23

There's links to everything there. 17:25

It's cleonfoundation.com. 17:26

It's C-L-E-O-N—foundation.com. 17:28

But cc-chapman.com is the easy way or cc_chapman on Twitter. 17:30

All right. 17:33

Very cool. 17:34

Thanks for coming, man. 17:35

Thanks for having me. 17:35

Thank you. 17:36

Author C.C. Chapman, author of "Amazing Things Will Happen" 17:37

and founder of The Cleon Foundation. 17:40

Thanks for joining us once again here on Treehouse Friends. 17:42

See ya next time. 17:45

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