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My Developer Journey followed by Q&A with Aaron Billings and Guil Hernandez
55:19 with TreehouseTreehouse Grad Aaron Billings discusses how to fail forward while achieving your goals. Following the presentation, Ryan Mouser will conduct a Q&A for Aaron.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
All right, hey everyone, and welcome to
my developer journey with Aaron Billings.
0:07
I'm Guil Hernandez.
0:13
I'm the Curriculum and
0:15
Instructor Support Manager at Treehouse
as well as one of the instructors.
0:16
And I'm super glad you
decided to join us today.
0:19
And so throughout this hour Software
Developer Aaron Billings is going to
0:23
recount his journey,
transitioning to tech as a career.
0:27
And in the second half of this session,
Aaron's going to answer your questions.
0:31
So if you have questions for
Aaron, go ahead and
0:34
put them in the Q&A section of the chat.
0:37
You can also ask your
favorite questions too.
0:39
Great so here we go.
0:42
I'm happy to present Aaron Billings
as our speaker for this session.
0:43
Aaron is a developer from Atlanta,
Georgia.
0:48
He currently works as a software engineer.
0:51
Before Aaron became a developer,
he was in the customer support industry.
0:54
During his career as a support manager,
he enjoyed helping people,
0:59
communicating about technology,
and solving technical problems.
1:03
However, Aron always wanted to understand
how technologies are created and
1:07
what drives them.
1:12
So that curiosity sent him on
a path to become a developer, and
1:13
he hasn't looked back since.
1:17
And his spare time, Aaron enjoys spending
time with his wife and two kids,
1:19
playing video games, and
learning new things.
1:23
You can find him on twitter @abdevelops.
1:25
All right everyone, please welcome Aaron.
1:28
>> Thanks, Guil.
1:31
I appreciate that.
1:33
Hi everybody.
1:34
It's awesome to be here.
1:36
And I'm excited to present this to you.
1:38
So, yeah, my name is Aaron Billings.
1:42
This is how to fell forward and
achieving your goals.
1:45
There are many different paths in the tech
and Treehouse was my path in the tech.
1:49
I'm happy that I found Treehouse.
1:55
It's an amazing platform that I was able
to find, fortunately, and go through.
1:58
And I'll share a little bit
about how all that came to be.
2:05
So, about me,
I live in the greater Atlanta area.
2:11
I have a wife and two kids.
2:17
Esther age six, Eden age five.
2:20
So they're growing super fast, and
I'm loving every minute of it.
2:23
And they keep me on my toes, keep me busy.
2:30
So in addition to being
a software developer,
2:33
have kids, so always running around.
2:37
And a fun fact about me,
I love electric cars.
2:41
I actually just got a Chevy Bolt,
with B, B as in banana.
2:44
Cuz there is a there is
a Chevy Volt with a V as in Victor.
2:50
But I love electric cars,
learned a ton about them.
2:54
And yeah,
that's something else that [LAUGH] I guess
2:58
I could talk all day about.
3:03
So I know all different types about that,
probably too much.
3:06
[LAUGH] So starting the journey,
3:12
like how did I actually get
into starting this journey?
3:14
So before I was a dev,
I had many different hats.
3:19
So I started out in the fast food industry
working at Hardee's and Mcdonnell's.
3:23
I even went to school
to be a phlebotomist,
3:30
even to be a massage therapist.
3:33
So that was pretty interesting,
being a massage therapist,
3:37
learning kind of all about
the different muscles.
3:41
Learning kind of the different ways
you can manipulate things working with
3:43
chiropractors and
things like that was pretty cool.
3:48
And then I kind of jumped into
the customer service industry.
3:51
So I was a customer service rep for
a while, had the privilege of being
3:55
a support manager, and that was really
really awesome being able to be a leader.
3:59
Lead other people, kind of teaching them,
helping them reach their goals.
4:04
And I noticed that as I was helping
other people reach their goals,
4:10
I kind of just started thinking
about what goals did I have?
4:14
Where did I wanna go?
4:18
What did I wanna do?
4:20
Cuz I was bouncing around
from different places.
4:21
And I always thought I wanna
do something that's technical.
4:24
I like what I'm doing, but
I kind of want to do more technical stuff.
4:27
So I thought, well,
maybe I could be a developer.
4:32
Maybe I could build something cool.
4:36
But wait developer, being a developer,
those are for like super smart people and
4:39
I'm not a super smart person, I thought.
4:44
So maybe I could just build an app or
something.
4:46
I had just got my first iPhone,
got the iPhone 4 and I was like super,
4:50
super excited.
4:54
And meanwhile, like,
this is my first iPhone, but the iPhone,
4:55
I think the iPhone 5C was out.
4:59
So it was like a couple
of generations before.
5:01
So I wanted to build something cool
on the iPhone, maybe build an app.
5:04
So what I did was I got
some Udemy courses, right?
5:08
So I was like, that's the thing to do.
5:12
So I didn't know where else to turn.
5:13
Udemy was there, let me jump on Udemy,
let me see what they have.
5:16
Okay, cool, so
they have some iOS developer courses.
5:19
All right, let me go through there.
5:23
I can go through and see that, right?
5:24
All I wanna do is build an app,
that's cool.
5:27
I had in my mind what
this app needs to do.
5:29
Let me follow a couple tutorials and
then I think I'll be good.
5:32
Yeah, I think I'll be good.
5:36
No, no, I wasn't,
[LAUGH] that did not work.
5:40
That did not work.
5:44
It didn't work out the way that I thought.
5:45
And this kinda brings
me to failing forward.
5:48
So when you're starting in tech,
you're gonna have moments that you fail.
5:50
So, where I failed?
5:57
So like I said before,
I got the Udemy courses,
6:00
I started jumping in, and
I said, I can do this.
6:03
I think I can do this, and
after completing two courses,
6:08
all the way through, I sat down and
said, I'm gonna build my app.
6:12
This is what I'm gonna do.
6:18
And I clearly remembering sitting
there thinking, all right,
6:21
so part of my app needs to
display something, all right?
6:25
I know how to do that.
6:29
And then part of my app needs to take
some input, maybe like an array or
6:31
something like that and
then loop over this and display that.
6:37
What is a loop?
6:41
Now meanwhile, I had just went
through two full courses on Udemy.
6:45
But I didn't even know what a loop was,
right?
6:49
So where I failed, I didn't
understand the basic concepts, right?
6:52
I didn't understand what a loop was.
6:57
I didn't understand the things,
6:58
the concepts that they were
teaching in these courses.
7:00
Not because the courses
themselves weren't good, but
7:03
because the way that I learned,
I didn't build along with them.
7:08
I just built the tutorial
exactly as they said it.
7:13
And following along with the video
without actually taking the time to do
7:16
it yourself,
you get into some trouble with that.
7:21
I also didn't tell other people
that I was learning code.
7:24
The only person I told was my wife.
7:27
I said, hey, I'm gonna build an app.
7:28
She was like, okay.
7:30
And [COUGH] I didn't really take
what I was doing seriously.
7:32
I just decided, well, I guess I can do it,
7:38
maybe it could be a career down the line,
I don't know.
7:41
And I didn't know where to go for help,
like I didn't know what a look was.
7:46
I didn't even know what to google to even
find out how to fix my problem, no idea.
7:52
So that was another place that I failed.
7:58
And I felt really dejected,
I felt like I achieved nothing.
8:03
I really felt like I had fallen,
and I did, I failed.
8:09
And I did kinda gave up for a while.
8:14
I gave up for a couple of months,
six months to a year actually.
8:20
I just said, well,
I'm just gonna take a break from this,
8:25
focus on my customer service stuff.
8:28
But I found Treehouse,
8:31
thanks to the job that I was at.
8:34
And I started to talk to some
developers that were at my new job.
8:39
And I met up with some some devs there.
8:43
I told them that I was thinking about
learning to code, and they said, hey,
8:47
why don't you start checking out different
boot camps, check out different places.
8:50
I didn't have that much money.
8:55
So I said, well, let me see if there's
something else that I could do that would
8:57
fit inside my budget.
9:00
And someone mentioned Treehouse.
9:02
So I jumped on a Treehouse,
I took a look at some of their courses.
9:05
And I took one course and I said,
wow, I learned more in this
9:08
course than I did throughout
the entire Udemy Courses that I did.
9:12
Because of the way that
the instructors like Guil,
9:17
walked through the material and
really explain things.
9:21
And then it took you through almost
like a mini quiz that would test you on
9:26
your knowledge to make
you really understand.
9:30
So then I thought, well, maybe I
could take the Treehouse Techdegree,
9:34
and then I could really
make a career out of this.
9:39
I learned from the past
mistakes that I had, right?
9:42
That I didn't tell anybody,
I didn't understand the basic concepts,
9:46
I didn't know where to reach for help.
9:50
So I kind of wrote those things down,
I had those things locked away.
9:52
I said, these are the things that I failed
at before I'm not gonna let that hinder
9:56
me this time.
10:00
Here is where I'm going to shore up so
10:01
that I can actually achieve
my goals this time.
10:03
So failing forward,
learning from the failure that I did.
10:06
I said, this is what I'm gonna do.
10:10
So what I learned from Treehouse,
the Tech degree, right?
10:12
I learned how to learn.
10:17
There is a concept that many
people will teach you as you're
10:19
going through coding bootcamps or
even if you're go to college,
10:23
things like that,
you need to learn how to learn.
10:28
A lot of times when we go to school,
we go through K through 12, right?
10:32
You're learning how to learn there.
10:36
But if you don't go to college or
you don't do something else,
10:37
you kind of forget how to learn sometimes.
10:41
So sometimes you have to kinda jolt
yourself back into the learning
10:44
environment of how to learn.
10:48
But also how you specifically learn,
right?
10:49
So not everybody's gonna learn
in the exact same way that I do.
10:54
So you have to understand
how you actually learn.
10:58
So that's what I did.
11:01
I understand how I learned in
the Tech degree at Treehouse,
11:02
through the videos and the way that
they explained it really worked for me.
11:05
I gained a real understanding
of basic concepts.
11:09
I understood what a loop was.
11:12
[LAUGH] I understand what a function was.
11:14
I understood what functions do.
11:16
I specifically remember the first time
that I was going through the bootcamp and
11:20
I said, you know what?
11:24
I could use a function for this.
11:26
And I felt amazing because when you start
to really understand these concepts,
11:28
it really spurs you on to
continue to keep going.
11:36
I also gained mentors through this
process, not just that at Treehouse but
11:40
other places too.
11:45
So like I said before, one of the areas
that I failed at previously was not
11:46
letting other people know.
11:50
But this time I did let people know,
let people know my job like, like hey,
11:51
I'm learning to code.
11:55
And they were just amazing.
11:57
And they said, hey,
let me know if you need any help,
12:00
reach out to me, let's talk,
here's what you need to do.
12:04
Here are the places that
you can reach out to.
12:09
Here's how you can grow your network.
12:12
And by letting other people
know that I was coding and
12:14
kind of jumping into that group,
kind of availing myself of resources, and
12:18
kind of being vulnerable, opening up and
putting myself out there.
12:22
I was really able to network and
kinda move past that failure.
12:27
So after Treehouse, after I
completed the Treehouse Techdegree,
12:36
I had to figure out how to get a job.
12:43
So that is not always easy, right?
12:47
So especially if you didn't go to college,
12:50
sometimes you can be looked down at.
12:55
But I never let that discourage me, right?
12:59
Because even if you don't go to college,
13:02
you have something that someone may not,
right?
13:05
Your value, you are a valuable asset
because you have experiences that nobody
13:09
else has because you are you, right?
13:13
You are you there then,
that's how it works.
13:16
So having those experiences,
you can leverage that to your advantage.
13:19
So in the job hunt,
I tapped into my network.
13:23
I reached out to the people that
I had told hey, I'm coding.
13:28
What do you think I should do for
looking for jobs?
13:32
Where would you go?
13:34
And immediately they were like,
okay, hey, you know what?
13:36
Reach out to this recruiter,
he, or she, or
13:38
they were really instrumental
in helping me find my first job.
13:40
Reach out to them, they'll help you.
13:44
Or I think that you should probably apply
here, or hey, this company is applying.
13:46
Or hey, this company is applying here or
13:52
maybe you should reach out to this
network, go to meetups, do this, do that.
13:54
So a lot of tapping into your
network will help, right?
13:58
And then creating my narrative.
14:03
And this is what happens when recruiters
or even when you're on the job,
14:06
they'll ask you, so
tell me about yourself, right?
14:12
Tell me about yourself, and
you don't wanna freeze here.
14:17
You wanna prepare in advance
what your narrative is.
14:20
Create that up, right?
14:24
Make that, write it down,
that's what I did.
14:26
So talk about your narrative, how you
went from not knowing any code to coding.
14:29
How did you do it?
14:35
Throw interesting anecdotes in there,
do that.
14:37
Create your narrative, create your story.
14:40
Because I guarantee you if you create
your story, then when you deliver it,
14:43
there'll be more interested in
hearing what you got to say.
14:48
And then also focusing on a few outlets.
14:52
A lot of times what will happen is,
what I've seen in my cases, there's so
14:55
many different ways to reach out.
15:00
There's LinkedIn, there's Twitter,
there's Instagram, there's just so
15:03
many different things.
15:07
It's good to narrow the scope, what worked
for me, just narrowing the scope to a few
15:08
different outlets so you can really,
really focus on what you wanna do.
15:13
So if you're applying for jobs on
LinkedIn, then just focus on LinkedIn,
15:17
focus on Twitter.
15:21
Grab one or two and really,
really focus on those mediums
15:23
instead of trying to just
cast this huge wide net.
15:28
Because it's very hard to keep
focused on more than, for me at least,
15:33
more than three mediums of contacts and
ways to apply for jobs.
15:39
So for me what really helped is kinda
focusing on just a few outlets,
15:44
LinkedIn, Twitter, for example.
15:48
And then really hone in and
get really good at crafting messages,
15:50
reaching out to people,
talking to people, things like that.
15:53
And then the last thing is
just applying jobs, right?
15:56
So you got to apply to a tonne of jobs.
16:00
Apply the job, read the job description.
16:03
Apply the jobs that you think
you may not even get, right?
16:05
Because a lot of times they'll
put descriptions on there and
16:11
the descriptions be like well
I don't know all that stuff.
16:15
Nobody really knows all that stuff, right?
16:20
The job is supposed to stretch you,
16:22
is supposed to bring you
out of your comfort zone.
16:23
And if you know everything there
is to know about that job,
16:25
are you really gonna learn anything?
16:28
Probably not, right?
16:30
So you want the job to be interesting.
16:31
So apply for
things that you don't know, right?
16:32
You wanna know some things but
16:35
you shouldn't have to tick all
the boxes in order to be able to apply.
16:36
So get comfortable with applying to lots,
and lots, and lots, and lots of jobs.
16:41
I think before I even got any offers,
I applied to about 300,
16:45
50, 400 different applications I sent out,
16:50
probably even more than that,
before I even got any interviews lined up.
16:53
So the interviews are out there, but
you will have to apply to those jobs.
16:59
All right, so once you have an interview
lined up, what do you do, right?
17:05
So how does that work?
17:11
So there's several things that I did.
17:13
Know the company that you're interviewing
with, this is super important.
17:17
There are certain kinds of companies
that do certain kinds of interviews.
17:21
The tech interview scene
is not consistent at all.
17:26
And because it's not consistent,
it's really like forest dump site.
17:30
It's a box of chocolates,
you never know what you're gonna get.
17:36
But you can take a peek by knowing
the company that you're interviewing with,
17:38
right?
17:43
So what you need to do is
figure out what company is.
17:44
So if you know you're
interviewing with Google,
17:46
then you're gonna be asked data structure
and algorithm questions, right?
17:49
You know that, so
you know kinda how to prepare.
17:53
If you're going from maybe a startup,
how do you find out?
17:55
Well, talk to the recruiter,
talk to people that are at that company.
17:59
Hey, how's your interviewing process?
18:03
What did you do?
18:04
How do you prepare for it?
18:05
Things like that.
18:06
Getting those details.
18:07
Don't be afraid to reach out to people
that are already at the company.
18:08
Hey, I have an interview lined up,
18:11
how was your experience
interviewing at this company?
18:12
Do you have any tips?
18:15
Do you have any tricks, right?
18:16
Things that could probably help me.
18:18
People are always,
usually I found, very helpful.
18:20
They will give you advice and
tell you hey,
18:25
this is what you need to watch out for, or
prepare for this, don't prepare for that.
18:27
And then once you actually get those
details, do something with it, right?
18:32
Actually prepare.
18:36
So, if it's data structure and algorithms,
if you're interviewing at Google, or
18:37
you're interviewing at Facebook or
Netflix, right?
18:41
You will need to prepare, you will need
to get on the LeetCode, AlgoExpert.
18:46
Or if it's an interview where
you're gonna be building something,
18:53
maybe figure out what their tech stack is.
18:57
Cuz they're usually gonna have you
build in those tech stacks, right?
18:59
So, if they're building an Angular,
and you're practicing
19:02
building stuff in React,
then that's not gonna help you, right?
19:07
So you wanna make sure that you're
practicing building things in the tech
19:12
stack that you're be
doing interviewing for.
19:15
So once you kinda prepare those things,
19:17
you can be a little bit more confident
in kind of easing that interview.
19:21
Those things give you a leg up than just
kinda walking in the door unprepared.
19:26
So you always wanna make sure that you're
prepared when you're going into these
19:32
interviews, and
you kind of know what to expect.
19:36
You can always expect the unexpected but
19:38
always have some preparation
in your backpack.
19:41
So once I got past the interview phase for
19:45
the job that I was applying for,
then I got the job, right?
19:49
So that's always great,
you get the job and You're excited.
19:54
But now you're like, wow,
19:58
now I actually got a code,
now I gotta figure out what I'm doing.
20:00
And then, [LAUGH] what happens?
20:04
The imposter syndrome creeps in, right.
20:08
So, my goodness, they hired me, but
do they know they hired a failure?
20:11
That's what I thought on my first day,
20:19
do they know that they hired
someone who can barely code?
20:21
I feel like they've made a mistake.
20:25
And that's the imposter syndrome that's
talking, and it's not real, right.
20:27
They know exactly who they hired, because
they went through the interview process.
20:32
You were asked lots of different
questions, and they wouldn't have hired
20:36
you if they didn't believe
that you could do it, right.
20:39
There was something that you presented in
that interview stage and in your applicant
20:42
stage that they found appealing, and they
thought that you would be a great fit for
20:47
their company, culture fit,
technical fit, things like that, right.
20:52
And you don't have to know everything.
20:56
A lot of times,
especially when I was starting out,
20:59
I thought I needed to know everything
there was to know before I started a job.
21:02
And that's not true, you only need to
know what you know currently, right.
21:07
Once you get into the job,
you're always gonna be learning, and
21:13
they're gonna give you time to learn.
21:16
So my first week on the job
was a lot of learning.
21:18
It was like, hey, here's a laptop,
let's get you set up,
21:22
took three days to get my laptop set up.
21:25
I was anxious because I
had never set up a laptop,
21:27
I had never got my environment set up.
21:31
So I'm constantly asking the senior dev,
21:33
is three days an acceptable time for
it to get set up,
21:37
is that how it's supposed to be,
or is it supposed to take longer?
21:41
And I remember [LAUGH] the senior
dev that I talked to, hey,
21:47
it's gonna be all right,
it's gonna be fine.
21:51
Don't worry, it's gonna be all right.
21:55
Just calm down, breathe,
and it's gonna be okay.
21:58
But those are things that you
have to fight with, right.
22:07
That's the imposter syndrome
that's talking, and
22:12
you don't want to let
that get the best of you.
22:15
I even wrote an article
on imposter syndrome on
22:17
a medium that I found might be helpful.
22:21
And the things that I found that I use
to fight through imposter syndrome,
22:25
cuz it creeps up now and then.
22:31
Especially if you go to a new job or
maybe you had a rough couple weeks
22:33
where you're trying to solve a really
tough problem and you couldn't do it, so
22:38
those things will creep up sometimes.
22:43
So what do I do now, right?
22:46
So what I do now is I work
at a pretty cool company,
22:49
they do cyber security risk assessment,
which is super cool.
22:54
And I do the same things that
I did in my first other jobs,
23:00
I code all day, and get to work
with some amazing team members.
23:06
And the things that I
will tell you that really
23:12
helped me is paring with people early on.
23:17
I love pairing with people,
seeing, talking with other devvs,
23:22
picking their brains about things,
reaching out for help.
23:26
Never be afraid to reach out
to other people for help.
23:29
I always find that people
are readily available to help you.
23:34
They're happy to help you even to
kind of share what they know so
23:38
that they can help you level up as
a developer, and that's what it's about.
23:42
Once you gain some knowledge,
help other people.
23:46
Same thing that you would want
someone to do for you, do for them.
23:49
So that's kind of what I do on a daily
basis now is what that guy in the GIF is
23:55
doing, is just coding.
23:59
I don't code that fast, sometimes maybe,
24:01
maybe every once in a while if I
know exactly what I need to type.
24:05
[LAUGH] But I don't type that fast.
24:11
So yeah,
that's the end of my presentation.
24:14
I appreciate you allowing me
to tell you about my journey.
24:21
And yeah, I hope it was informative.
24:28
>> Wonderful, yeah, Aaron, thank you so
much for sharing your story and
24:35
your journey into tech, and
super honored that we were a part of that.
24:40
So at this time we're gonna
move over to questions, and
24:45
I see that we already have some
really good ones from our attendees.
24:48
Some of them,
many of them are related to learning,
24:54
interviewing, and the job itself.
24:58
So let's go ahead and
start with a question here from,
25:02
I just lost my place here, cool.
25:07
So when you were learning,
when you were taking the tech degree for
25:10
example, this is a question
from Patrick Brenner.
25:13
How long did it take you to finish it, and
25:16
were you working in your
old job in the meantime?
25:19
>> Yeah, that's a great question.
25:22
Yes, I was working,
I was working a full time job.
25:25
So this is where it gets a little fuzzy,
right.
25:28
So I completed the tech
degree in about four months,
25:32
which is, And
25:37
I give you this caveat of that is with
a schedule that you have to adhere to.
25:42
That is not saying that
you should do this, but
25:49
this is what I did cuz I was hungry to
learn and I kinda had a deadline to meet.
25:53
[LAUGH] But
what I would do is I would wake up,
25:59
probably 4 AM, 4:30, get to work at 5,
26:04
code and do Treehouse until 8:30, 9.
26:10
Do my job until 12 PM, lunch time,
26:15
talk with devs on our engineering floor,
ask them questions,
26:18
tell them about the things that I
was doing, ask them for suggestions.
26:23
And then from 12:30,
1 to 4, do my regular job,
26:29
go home,
spend a little bit time with the kids,
26:35
the wife, and then 6, 7 PM to about 12 AM,
26:40
11 PM, 12 AM, I was coding, doing that.
26:44
I did that for about four months, yeah.
26:49
So that's a rough schedule.
26:51
Not saying that everybody
should adhere to that.
26:53
That is not, [LAUGH] that's not
proper work life balance at all.
26:56
But there was something
that I needed to do and
27:01
that's the reason why I did it that way,
but
27:04
that is not saying that you all need to
do that, I don't recommend doing that.
27:07
You have the time to really
take longer to do it,
27:12
take longer to do it,
that's just how I did it.
27:17
>> Yeah,
four months indeed is quite remarkable.
27:22
[LAUGH] Cool, thanks.
27:25
So you talked a little
bit about mentors and
27:27
having mentors throughout your journey.
27:30
Do you have any tips on how you
might go about finding a mentor?
27:34
>> Yeah, great question.
27:39
So mentors I think are best found
when you're not looking for one.
27:40
I know that's kinda weird,
that's kind of a weird statement.
27:46
But a mentor-mentee is just kind of like
a friendship, right, that's all it is.
27:49
It's you sharing things with them,
them sharing things with you, and
27:54
you both learn from each other.
27:58
So if you're looking for a mentor,
I probably wouldn't go in it just saying,
28:00
hey, you person, can you be my mentor?
28:04
It should be more of, hey,
do you have a minute to chat?
28:08
And then over time that relationship
forms into a mentor-mentee relationship.
28:11
Now, sometimes, right, if someone says,
I am looking for a mentee and
28:17
you find that person, then yeah, that
would be a mentor-mentee relationship.
28:22
But most of the time it's gonna be you
having a friendship with this person or
28:27
building a relationship with that person,
maybe at a networking event.
28:31
Hey, would you mind meeting up and
going over a few questions,
28:34
or I'd like to pick your
brain about something, and
28:38
then gradually it kinda turns
into this mentor-mentee thing.
28:41
And those are relationships and
friendships that you keep for a long time.
28:45
I mean I still reach out to people that
I talked to when I first started coding,
28:49
and I even get to work with one of
my mentors, so that's pretty cool.
28:55
>> Great, yeah,
28:59
mentors oftentimes present themselves
in different ways at different moments.
29:00
So when you completed the tech degree or
you on the way to completing it,
29:05
did you feel there was a right
time to start applying for
29:12
a job as a self-taught developer?
29:18
It's a question from Dunkin.
29:21
>> Yeah, so I would say as soon as you
29:23
are comfortable with the basics.
29:28
If you can start answering questions and
you feel comfortable and you're kinda
29:32
building projects and things like that,
you can start looking for some positions.
29:37
And that's going to depend upon everybody,
right.
29:43
So a comfortable mark may be four
months for one person, six months for
29:45
the other, right.
29:49
So it just depends upon you and
how comfortable you are with the language.
29:50
Because when you actually get into that
job you're gonna to be doing a ton of
29:54
learning, and you're never going to get
to a point where you know everything.
29:59
So when you get to a comfortable point,
30:04
Then you can probably start looking for
some jobs.
30:08
That's what I did anyway,
30:11
I started to kinda put out feelers even
before I graduated with the tech degree,
30:13
just to kinda see like what was out there,
start talking to some recruiters.
30:17
Hey, I'm going through this program, this
is what I'm doing, this is what I know.
30:21
And that kinda gives you a good
understanding too of maybe some other
30:25
things that you need to learn, right?
30:29
Because you're not gonna know everything.
30:32
Yeah, [LAUGH] there's no course out there
that's gonna teach you every single
30:34
thing you need to know about
the job you're running into.
30:39
That's why you're in a lifelong learning
program with being a developer.
30:43
>> Yeah, that'd be one long
course to build and maintain.
30:49
>> [LAUGH]
>> Did at any point you consider pursuing
30:52
an internship, or did you go straight
into interviewing for entry level roles?
30:55
And if so, might you recommend
going the internship route first?
31:01
>> Yeah, so I did do kind of a hybrid
internship at the job that I was at.
31:04
So I told the people at my job, right,
that I was coding, learning to code.
31:12
And, I said,
I really wanna try to get some kind of
31:19
experience before I kinda jump out here.
31:23
Cuz what I'm doing is, I'm reaching
out to these recruiters and they say,
31:26
you don't have any experience.
31:30
And I'm like, well,
31:31
how do I get experience without
you giving me some experience?
31:32
And they said, well, we can't give you
experience unless you have experience.
31:35
You just get caught in this loop, right?
31:40
So one of the engineering
managers of the jobs said, hey,
31:42
we will let you kinda jump
into these scrum meetings.
31:46
You can kinda shadow people, and we'll
kinda have this kind of apprenticeship
31:50
thing for you that you can do.
31:55
And meanwhile,
31:56
I am working a full time job that I
can't just leave at the company, right?
31:57
So I need to perform well
still at my full-time job and
32:02
do the apprenticeship thing.
32:05
So it wasn't a full apprenticeship,
it wasn't a full internship.
32:07
It was kind of like a half internship
because I was only able to do it at
32:10
specific times during the week and
specific times during the day.
32:15
But, it gave me a chance to be
able to sit in on scrum meetings,
32:20
be able to kinda see maybe
a day in the developer's life.
32:24
See kind of the problems that they face,
and even maybe fix a couple of small bugs.
32:27
So, when I was or did get a chance
to talk to recruiters and said,
32:33
hey, I have pushed to a code base,
I have fixed these things.
32:37
I have jumped on scrum meetings,
I have done this.
32:42
So, I did kinda go that route, but
it wasn't like a full internship.
32:45
>> Great, yeah,
sounds like you had a kind of a gradual,
32:51
sort of smooth on ramping into the world
of, yeah, full time development.
32:55
But speaking of experience,
32:59
you have experience in food service,
customer service.
33:01
How do you think that experience is
translated into the tech industry?
33:06
And if so, do you have any tips on how
you might include previous experience in
33:11
your resume experience?
33:16
>> Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] that
come from these industries.
33:19
So, customer service,
food industry, things like that.
33:24
You may not think those skills transfer,
33:27
the soft you learn translate
tremendously into being a developer.
33:31
So I give you an example.
33:37
Everyone wants someone
who's a rockstar coder,
33:40
no one wants to work with someone who
doesn't have any soft skills, right?
33:44
That's just how life works.
33:50
[LAUGH] So there'll be certain
times where you'll need
33:52
those [INAUDIBLE] defuse
situations with coworkers.
33:56
How to defuse situations with a client,
right?
34:01
So, if you've worked at McDonald's,
you've dealt with a client,
34:04
you know how he acts, right?
34:08
If you've worked for customer service
industry, you've taken calls and
34:10
you've had people get upset.
34:15
And you've had to kinda calm them down and
kinda help them through an issue,
34:17
you know how to do this.
34:21
So, these are skills that you have in your
back pocket that you can talk to when
34:23
you're talking to recruiters, and
34:28
even if you're talking to
a manager trying to get the job.
34:31
You can say these are the skills
that I have that I also bring.
34:34
Yeah, I might be lacking
slightly in the tech skills.
34:37
I can always learn the tech skills.
34:40
Soft skills are much harder to learn.
34:42
They're usually learned over experiences.
34:44
And that's what we have and
that's what you can relate.
34:47
>> Yeah, 100%.
34:52
Now kind of on the flip side of that,
do you feel like
34:54
contributing to open source
projects on GitHub, for example?
34:58
Do you feel that that's viewed as genuine
experience in the eyes of recruiters, or
35:04
is it not taken all that serious?
35:09
That's a question from Paul Harrington.
35:11
>> It depends on what
company you apply to.
35:14
But I would say in the industry, overall,
open source, yes, is big, right?
35:20
Because Microsoft, right,
they own GitHub, [LAUGH] right?
35:26
So Google has open source products.
35:32
Netflix has open source products.
35:36
Facebook has open source product,
React, right?
35:40
React, GraphQL, right?
35:42
So, I mean, all these huge companies
have open source products.
35:45
So, it is definitely a way to
get your foot in the door and
35:49
have some working experience.
35:52
Because one of the things that you're
doing, and a shout out to Treehouse again,
35:54
one thing that I learned at
Treehouse was code reviews.
35:59
You go through and do code reviews.
36:03
Part of doing open source is
having your code reviewed.
36:06
And part of it is,
is sometimes you're gonna have your
36:10
code reviewed by people that are not so
36:15
nice all the time and
you have to be able to handle that.
36:18
So, you doing open source products,
you can talk to, I kinda feel that
36:23
when I made my first commit, I didn't do
it right and I had to correct some stuff.
36:28
This is how I corrected it and this is
how I resubmitted it and it got accepted.
36:34
And now I have code in this particular
platform that's open source.
36:38
I mean, that's a tremendous advantage, and
I think a value that you can speak to.
36:43
And it's all about how you speak to that,
right?
36:48
So tout your accomplishments when you're
on the interview, really speak to that.
36:50
Really speak to how you did it,
how you walked through it, process,
36:56
all those things will
jump out to employers.
37:00
>> Yeah, absolutely, I mean,
code reviews are incredibly valuable, and
37:03
it's a skill that maybe not all
students know that, like you said.
37:08
Maybe, yeah, they should include
it as part of their portfolio or
37:13
bring up into interviews.
37:16
It's not just the projects you build,
but it's also the ones you reviewed and
37:18
the feedback you provided.
37:21
There's so many, like you said,
soft skills you're contributing to it.
37:23
So, another question.
37:28
So, before we continue, which tech degree
did you complete since students, or
37:30
attendees rather,
37:34
are wanting to know your-
>> Yeah,
37:35
I did the full stack
JavaScript [INAUDIBLE].
37:37
>> Awesome.
37:39
>> Mm-hm.
37:39
>> Now,
related to job searching anonymous, so
37:43
do you suggest applying for
a junior dev role first just
37:48
to get the feel of working
in a development position?
37:54
If maybe you can't do
the internship route, for example.
38:00
>> So, if you can't do
the internship route, yeah,
38:05
there's nothing wrong with applying
to junior dev positions, right?
38:08
Or applying to developer roles, and seeing
if they have maybe a junior role, right?
38:14
Because a lot of times what will
happen is you'll apply to a position,
38:20
but that position, there'll be like
many spots for that particular position.
38:26
But you're only seeing one application
of many different routes that
38:33
you could take at that company.
38:38
So it's always good to apply for
different things.
38:41
Even if you think, well, I'm a junior,
I can never do this software,
38:44
mid-level thing.
38:48
You might apply and a recruiter or maybe a
hiring manager takes a look at your resume
38:49
and says, man,
this person would be a perfect fit for
38:54
a junior role that we have
here that just opened up.
38:57
Let's reach out to them about that, right?
39:00
So I would say always apply, because
you never know what could happen and
39:02
you don't know how
companies are structured.
39:06
And, you never know what path that
could lead you to, so always apply.
39:09
>> Yep, so speaking of development
roles and positions, were there any
39:15
certain types of positions that you
saw that would be coming available or
39:19
that you had opportunities to apply for
as a tech degree graduate?
39:24
Dan mentioned that, I think we're
all familiar with junior dev, but
39:29
were there other positions
you applied for.
39:32
Or that you noticed that you said, hey,
yeah, I have the skills to apply for this.
39:33
Not just a junior dev, maybe I can do
other things that are somewhat related or
39:38
similar?
39:42
>> I don't think that I did.
39:43
I applied to mainly junior and
mid-level positions.
39:46
And I did mid-level not because I was
a mid-level developer at the time,
39:52
but just because, I mean,
I don't know what their positions are.
39:56
They could have things that are open,
40:00
right, so
Those are the jobs that I applied to.
40:02
And then I also talked to recruiters, and
they will give you different positions
40:05
that are open too, and
they'll kinda talk you through.
40:10
They'll ask you, what you wanna do and
they'll say, I have this role here,
40:13
would you be interested in that, right?
40:17
And you can kinda get a feel for
kind of what's out there.
40:19
I mean, being a software engineer or
developer opens up so
40:22
many different avenues, right?
40:27
You can go into DevOps, I mean,
you can go into backend development,
40:30
frontend development.
40:34
I mean, there's tons of
different things you could do.
40:36
So, I would say for
what I want to do starting out,
40:37
I wanted to do some things specifically
to what I learned in Treehouse.
40:42
But if you are itching to do something
else, by all means apply to that.
40:47
>> You bet, do you know, or in your
experience looking for jobs, did you
40:53
come across any companies that were just
solely interested in hiring beginners?
40:58
Tay mentioned that it feels like all
the companies want senior level engineers.
41:04
Do you have any insight on that?
41:09
>> Yeah, it does feel like that.
41:11
Yeah, it does feel like that, and
it felt like that too when I was applying.
41:16
Every single job I applied to they'd say,
41:20
if you just had a couple more years
of experience, you'd be a great fit.
41:23
We love your attitude, but
41:27
if you had a couple more years of
experience you'd be a great fit.
41:29
You get that a lot, unfortunately,
because a lot of companies will want
41:32
people that they believe can jump in and
just do the work right away.
41:37
Right, but
a lot of junior devs can jump in there and
41:42
do the work right away too, right?
41:46
So it kind of just depends on that value.
41:49
The job that I ended up getting,
they were looking for a midlevel dev.
41:53
But the engineering manager,
I had a talk with him and I said, hey,
41:58
I said,
here's what I can bring to the table.
42:02
Right, here's what I can do, here are the
things that I can bring to the table.
42:04
This is the experience that I have,
not just the technical experience, but
42:08
also the soft skills.
42:13
Also the experience that I bring from
working at a job for these past times.
42:14
I bring even managerial experience,
42:18
being able to look at
situations in a different lens.
42:21
I can self-manage, so I'm not your typical
junior dev who needs a lot of direction.
42:25
I kinda know what to do.
42:30
My questions are gonna be
more of technical related,
42:32
how do I do this specific thing?
42:34
Or how do I search for
this specific thing?
42:36
Not how do I manage my tickets?
42:38
I know how to do that, right?
42:40
So kind of touting what you can do,
if you can get in and
42:41
have that conversation with the hiring
manager or with a recruiter.
42:45
If you can get past the recruiter and
get to the hiring manager and
42:51
have a conversation with them,
you have a better chance of getting into
42:55
those roles than if you just
stick with the recruiter.
43:00
So, it's good to, when you're on LinkedIn,
look at who the hiring manager is,
43:04
send them emails,
see if you can talk to them.
43:08
Or even reach out to people that
are at the job and say, hey,
43:11
how are things there?
43:15
Can I get in with the hiring manager?
43:16
Can I get his email?
43:19
Things like that that you can do.
43:20
Have those conversations,
you need to talk to the hiring manager.
43:22
That's how you kind of get around that.
43:25
>> Great, yeah,
43:27
that answers some questions our attendees
had regarding connecting to recruiters and
43:28
folks in hiring positions at tech
companies via LinkedIn, for example.
43:34
Keeping with that,
43:38
have you sort of seen any red flags
that you might wanna look out for
43:40
when interviewing for
a junior dev role, or any role?
43:46
Or conversely, maybe some green flags
as well, what should I be looking for
43:51
in a good company?
43:55
Maybe you can speak to that part.
43:56
>> Yeah, so you will have things
that are important to you.
43:58
So, I would say, write the things down
that are important to you in a company.
44:05
And ask those questions and
see if that company meets those needs.
44:10
For me, as a junior developer,
I was looking for
44:15
a company with good collaboration.
44:18
And I was also looking for
44:20
a good company with people that weren't
afraid to mentor people, right?
44:22
Because if you have a junior developer,
the junior dev is going to ask questions.
44:28
That's just what's gonna happen, right?
44:32
So you should be in a company with
other devs that are comfortable
44:34
with people reaching out to them and
pairing and asking questions.
44:39
So, if you ask that question, say,
are your devs confident in that or
44:44
comfortable with that?
44:48
And they say, well,
everyone kind of works by themselves.
44:49
That might be a red flag, right,
44:54
that you might not get the help
that you're looking for.
44:56
So listen to the kind of the cues
that they kind of give you.
44:59
But again, right,
everyone has their own lists.
45:04
But I would say, kind of write down
those things that you're looking for
45:08
specifically in a company.
45:11
Don't be afraid to ask those questions,
right?
45:13
Because just like you
are interviewing with them,
45:16
they're interviewing with you, right?
45:20
So, when you get to a certain point,
you have a lot of leverage,
45:23
especially if you get to that point
where they make you an offer.
45:27
Before you accept the offer,
you have a lot of leverage.
45:31
You can ask a lot of questions and
kinda get those answers that you need.
45:34
>> Yeah, so true.
45:40
Here's a good question
related to interviewing,
45:42
how did you prepare for
technical assessments?
45:45
That was a good question.
45:49
>> Yeah, technical assessment.
45:50
Man, okay.
45:53
So there are different kinds of technical
assessments [LAUGH] that you'll have.
45:54
So, it depends, and this goes
back to what I was saying before.
46:02
It depends upon the company
that you're going with and
46:05
the technical assessment
that you're taking.
46:08
So, there are some technical
assessments that are timed,
46:11
there are some technical
assessments that are untimed.
46:13
There are some technical
assessments that are open book.
46:15
There are some technical
assessments that are not open book.
46:18
There are some technical assessments
that are multiple choice.
46:20
There are some that are not.
46:22
So it's good to know what technical
assessment you're taking first.
46:24
And then you can kind of prepare for
what you're gonna be asked.
46:29
Now, with technical assessments,
46:32
you could be asked anything
from what code will
46:36
execute next in JavaScript or
what is a closure?
46:41
You could be asked literally
anything on those assessments.
46:46
But most that I've seen skewed
toward multiple choice.
46:50
They do a mix of multiple choice and
coding.
46:55
So, you'll be asked a couple of
multiple choice questions on,
46:58
what is the difference between let and
const?
47:04
Or what is the difference between var and
let, or something like that?
47:08
Different questions that you'll be asked,
JavaScript questions.
47:15
And then they'll take you maybe to React,
and they'll say,
47:17
create a component and
pass in a prop, a true or false prop.
47:22
Should true or false be this, or should
it be that, or how should you write this?
47:27
So how to prepare for those things?
47:32
It really just depends on
the assessment you're taking.
47:35
So, this is where it comes in of talking
to people who've taken them before,
47:38
talking to a recruiter, asking questions.
47:42
Try to get as much information
as you possibly can.
47:45
Ask tons and tons and tons of questions.
47:48
>> Yeah, the more you can speak
to what you're doing as well,
47:53
the better that might set you up
as you progress to the interview.
47:56
Great advice.
47:58
So, approximately how many
interviews did you go through and
47:59
technical assessment you think you might
have taken before you got that first role?
48:03
>> So I applied to probably anywhere from
48:13
350 to 400 applications.
48:19
Out of that, I had about eight or
nine interviews.
48:24
And those interviews,
some were building things.
48:31
So build something.
48:37
I only took two technical assessments.
48:39
Yeah, those technical
assessments that you'd get are,
48:43
it depends on what company
you're getting with.
48:47
I noticed that the technical assessments,
from what I saw,
48:50
are usually with bigger companies and
older companies, you'll get that.
48:56
So, if you're going with a startup, you
probably won't get technical assessment.
49:02
So, just kind of knowing, again,
the company that you're applying with and
49:07
the chances of you getting
something like that.
49:11
And then I got algorithm questions.
49:13
Build this thing live [LAUGH]
while we're watching you.
49:18
Let's pair and run through something.
49:24
And the job that I ended up getting
was a mix of JavaScript questions,
49:28
the first interview.
49:34
And the second interview, we were in
this big room and they said, hey,
49:35
we have a problem.
49:40
And this was a design interview.
49:42
So sometimes you'll get
design interviews too.
49:44
>> Sure.
49:46
>> And they say, hey,
we have this problem,
49:46
we're trying to connect to this database
and we're trying to do this, and
49:48
we have two databases, and
we're creating these microservices.
49:51
And we're doing this and this, and
they wrote it all on whiteboard.
49:53
Figure out the best way, the best path, to
kind of connect all these things, right?
49:57
And they wanna see how you think.
50:01
They wanna see what you
would do in this situation.
50:03
And it's not to test
your knowledge on coding,
50:07
it's just testing your
knowledge on design.
50:09
Do you know enough or
can you think in a different way to kind
50:12
of route those things together
in a way that makes sense?
50:17
And those questions is all about
asking them questions, right?
50:22
So asking them as many questions so
50:26
that you get a feel for
the answer they're looking for.
50:29
So I would say never try
to solve those things,
50:34
don't just walk to the whiteboard and
just, yeah, this goes here and
50:36
this was here, here it is the, and
then drop in marker and walk away.
50:40
That's not how to do it, right?
50:44
So you wanna-
>> If only.
50:46
>> Right, [LAUGH]
>> Did you experience any companies who
50:48
gave you, for example, a take home project
that gave you the sort of facts and
50:51
some guidelines that said here you go,
in 24 hours 48 hours or how much time?
50:57
>> Yes, I did, yeah.
51:02
So I had several of those where they
would give you take home projects,
51:04
even also take home quizzes,
even have those too.
51:10
But take home projects are pretty fun,
51:13
because they're stuff that
you can build for them.
51:17
And then you have it in your
GitHub forever, right, it's yours.
51:21
You built it, you own it, and
then you can also add on to it.
51:25
Cuz sometimes the cool thing is is that,
well I personally like them
51:29
because they give you ideas about building
stuff that you may not have thought about.
51:34
So I've built things like a build a modal
that pops up, or build like a chat feature
51:42
or something like that, things that you
probably wouldn't necessarily think of.
51:47
But they're things that you now can
showcase to other people and say, yeah,
51:53
I built this, right?
51:57
It's your code, you built it,
you get to keep it.
51:59
>> Yeah, and oftentimes, sorry, if it's
related to a product or app feature,
52:01
some companies might even pay you for
it, right,
52:06
to make sure that they're not
pushing out spec work to you.
52:09
>> Yep, exactly.
52:12
Yes, I have actually been paid for that.
52:13
So some companies,
some interviews, will pay you for
52:15
your time, depending upon how
much work there is to do.
52:20
So I did interview with a company,
I didn't get the job unfortunately, but
52:24
I got all the way to the last round,
and they paid you, they paid you for
52:29
your time.
52:33
So that was a pretty cool thing.
52:34
>> Cool, yeah, so a couple more questions.
52:38
One I'm particularly curious
about to hear your answer.
52:39
Do you think HTML, CSS, and
some JavaScript is enough?
52:45
Is that you think the minimum skill
set you might need to get a job?
52:50
>> Probably for some jobs, not for
53:04
most jobs, and I'll tell you why.
53:08
Because most jobs have some kind
of framework that they're using.
53:13
So React, Angular, View,
Spelt is out there now,
53:16
Ember, they have some kind of framework.
53:20
So if you only have a basic knowledge
of JavaScript, HTML, and CSS,
53:23
then what will usually happen is they
will ask you React questions and
53:29
you won't know how to answer them.
53:34
And they will weed you out really quickly.
53:37
So the one thing to do is to figure out
53:40
what side of the fence you
want to jump on, right?
53:43
So if you wanna jump on Angular or React
or View or whatever you want to do, and
53:47
start learning stuff about that.
53:51
Now, if you have a basic understanding
of how these things work, then yeah,
53:53
I think you're good, right?
53:56
As long as you can answer basic
questions about them, you're fine.
53:58
Maybe, probably would be good to
even build something in it, right?
54:01
That would be even better,
54:05
to build something in them that
you can show to other people.
54:06
Projects are really good, tangible
things that you can show other people.
54:10
But having just HTML, CSS,
and JavaScript nowadays,
54:13
that might not get you to
where you're looking to go.
54:18
You might need to, yeah,
54:23
you need to have a basic understanding
of at least one framework or library.
54:24
>> Yep, fair enough.
54:29
However, having a solid grasp of the
foundations of each of those can really
54:29
set you up to get up to speed with
some of this tools and libraries.
54:34
>> Yup.
54:38
>> I can speak to that.
54:39
Cool, and the final question for
you, Aaron,
54:41
what's the most rewarding
part of your job?
54:44
>> I love this question.
54:47
So the one thing that I
enjoy about coding is that
54:48
you can build things
that other people use.
54:54
And they don't know that you built it,
they don't know who you are,
55:00
they don't know where you are,
they don't even know that you exist.
55:04
But the fact that you
built something that made
55:08
their life a little bit
easier is really cool.
55:14
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